K-Pop is easily one of the biggest music genres in the world. 

Taking over western media with artists such as BTS and BLACKPINK breaking their way into the mainstream markets and helping to open the door for fans to discover similar acts, there has been a huge influx and American interest in K-Pop since around the mid 2010s. 

But even though the genre seems to have just begun picking up steam over the past decade- with BTS making history this year as the first K-pop group to be nominated in a major category at the 2021 Grammy awards- the genre has existed well beyond the confines of the millennium, and can be traced back to pioneering group Seo Taiji and Boys, who debuted in 1992 and helped to make the genre what it is today.

But despite securing massive fanbases (all of whom have names such as the ARMY, Blinks, Shawols, etc.), taking over social media, and captivating the hearts and minds of millions of music fans across the globe- K-pop is still often overlooked when it comes to major accolades or general industry recognition. So how can these artists receive the recognition they deserve when the industry constantly snubs them? The answer is complex but one major factor is through pure, unadulterated fan power- a prime example being the rising K-Pop podcast: Hagpop!

A podcast created by longtime K-pop and music fans Gabby and Mandie, Hagpop! explores the world of K-pop through the lens of the fan experience. Using each episode to share their thoughts on the latest K-pop releases, the duo discuss some of the most famous artists in the genre as well as some of the up and coming ones- giving listeners a great starting point for anyone who may not already be privy to general genre knowledge.

Now a year into recording and sharing their thoughts, we had the chance to chat with the Hagpop! hosts to discuss how their podcast came to be and get an insight into the world of K-pop.

You can read our full interview below, and be sure to check out Hagpop! as new episodes air every other Sunday.

Second Society Report: Thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us so that we can learn more about Hagpop! First to start off I just want to see how you both have been and make sure everyone is doing well and staying healthy? I know this past year has been difficult for everyone so I think it’s important just to check in with each other. 

Gabby: I’m fine (laughs).

Mandie: I’m good too. Thank you for asking. This year has been wild.

Gabby: But that’s also kind of what started this. 

Mandie: Yeah. That’s kind of what started this- and we’ll talk about how we started this, because they go together, but yeah, we’ve been good.

Second Society Report: Before we dive into the world of Hagpop, can you each share a bit of background about yourselves and what your relationship to music is?

Gabby: I actually played an instrument for eight-ish years and I was going to go into music before I got into art and now tattooing.

Mandie: I was always like the weird emo kid in school who was really into pop punk music before-  I hate saying ‘before’ people were, but like I got really into music, and listening to and finding my own music in middle school. And I was “that weird kid.” 

Even though I did like theater in high school, I always wanted to go into music and so I went to school for music business, so I have a weird relationship with music because of that. I really liked music, I wanted to go into the music industry but then when I went to school I kind of got burnt out on it because it was so serious and I kind of was over it. And then it actually was KPOP that brought me back into it. 

Gabby: I also would have gone into jazz performance if I did go into music, which is a doozy of a choice (laughs).

Second Society Report: How did you two meet?

Mandie: We met online when I was in college. That’s how we met- it was like on Tumblr. And now we’re here and we’re not Internet “stranger dangerous” (laughs).

Second Society Report: How did you get into K-pop?

Gabby: So besides weird pop punk stuff in middle school, I also liked anime. And for reference, I’m thirty one, so with liking anime I also got really into J-rock. And there was like the only way to get Japanese music was through Limewire. And honestly I’m surprised my family computer did not just explode because of that (laughs). But there’s like a general progression from Japanese rock to eventually like- Comcast had the “Asian Music Station,” or whatever it’s called. There was the “On Demand” button, if you paid for that, where you could go through and they had music and cartoons or whatever, and the music was broken down by  pop, rock, whatever genre, and they also had foreign music. And then I eventually found K-pop through that at some point.

Mandie: My K-pop journey is a weird one. I was in college and I was living with my friend Jenny at the time, and I came home from class one day and she goes, “Mandie, I want to show you this,” and she shows me Super Junior’s “Mr. Simple” video, which is a time (laughs). And as someone who had never seen a K-pop video before, I was like “what the fuck is this?” Granted, I listened to One Direction and 5 Seconds of Summer and Backstreet Boys- I liked pop music. So I was like, what is this- one of them’s wearing like a noose as an accessory-  I don’t know what the fuck is going on. And she goes, “Mandie, if you are ever having a bad day, just remember, you’re not in this video.” And so that’s how I was introduced to K-pop.

Then I kind of got a little bit more into it, and my friend Jenny got more into it than I did. Then I had a professor the next year in college for my management class who was Korean American, and she would play music before class, and a lot of the time it was K-pop. She always would pick something to help us focus in, and that was right after I had kind of gotten more into it and was right after EXO’s “Call Me Baby,” comeback. And then I got really into EXO in 2015. I was only taking like a couple classes and I had nothing better to do so I started watching K-dramas and listening to K-pop more, and it just kind of was like a death spiral from there (laughs).

Second Society Report: What was your inspiration for starting your podcast? 

Mandie: Before quarantine started, we kind of had this idea- or my mom said to me “you should do a podcast.” And I was like, I don’t know what I would do a podcast about. And so I said it to Gabby, and we were both just like, what if we did a K-pop podcast? And so we came up with Hagpop! because we were both over the age of 25, we liked K-pop and it was something we could talk a whole lot about, and I thought it was funny. It’s not like you can’t be 18 and listen to us, but I think things make more sense when you’re older and you realize what we’re talking about, because we can be bitter (laughs).

Gabby: Little bit (laughs). But we do genuinely like groups from like the second generation, and we know of the first generation, even up to the fourth. So it’s not like we dismiss newer groups either. 

Second Society Report: Can you give the story behind your podcast’s name?

Mandie: So, Gabby is 31 and I am 28. If you’ve ever seen K-pop Twitter…it’s a time. And there’s this stigma with K-pop now that was never really there before, where if you’re over the age of 20/21, like actually pretty young, you’re considered old and apparently your hobbies should magically go away. So as a joke, I will call old K-pop boy bands “hags,” that’s like a joke because they’re not that old, they’re like 30 or like 27. But so Gabby and I are kind of considered Hags. Hags of K-pop, who’ve been around for a while. We came up with the idea of Hagpop! based on that. 

And these older groups who’ve been around for 10 years, who have done their mandatory military service, people often say “oh they’re just old hags, they make bad music now.” So we’ve kind of taken that hag thing and we’ve turned it into almost like a badge of honor. Like you can call me a hag and I’ll be like ”okay, sure.”

Second Society Report: Run us through an average episode. What do you discuss?

Mandie: We talk about new releases. 

Gabby: Yeah, it’s actually kind of the easiest thing to do. 

Mandie: There’s a lot that happens in the world of Korean entertainment. And it moves fast. So kind of. The easiest thing to talk about is new releases, and we talk about not all of them- but we talk about a lot. We talk about 20 to 30 songs an episode. 

Second Society Report: How do you choose which releases to discuss?

Mandie: I go through r/K-pop and I pick things (laughs). I will do big releases or big debuts of groups that we both like. Sometimes we might stumble upon something that’s interesting or new that maybe we didn’t know about and we’ll put it on the list. We talk about whether we like a song or we don’t like a song. It’s kind of subjective because there’s stuff that Gabby likes that I don’t like, there’s stuff that I like that Gabby doesn’t like, there’s stuff that we both like and we both dislike. It’s just fun and we talk about not just if we like the song or not, but also cool things that are in the music. And our episodes are long- they’re almost two hours, and we talk a lot.

Gabby: We also do mini episodes, too where we just like to take time to either single out a group that we want to talk about or talk about B-sides. 

Mandie: Yeah and when you tune in to us you’re going to hear about two weeks worth of releases because we don’t record every week. So we find new stuff and then maybe it brings new stuff to other people if they don’t know about it. 

Second Society Report: What has been the most challenging and/or most rewarding part of starting this podcast?

Mandie:We do this for ourselves. 

Gabby: Yeah, it’s all super self-indulgent. I don’t know what our logistics are but I think we’ve got like maybe 11 consistent listeners, but there are some episodes that have like almost 50. And because it is very self-indulgent we also get to be pretty open about our opinions. Which, I mean, I don’t know if we would change it even if it wasn’t.

Mandie: Right. It’s fine, it’s fun. And we started this before quarantine, our first episode went up March 8th, 2020. 

Gabby: But that was also like a day before I stopped working. 

Mandie: That was that probably was like the week before the countrywide lockdown started to happen, and I was still working from home but it helped keep us on track, even though we weren’t doing it every week, as a good time tracker. It’s something that was nice to have during lock down. 

This is actually like one of the easier things because people do listen to us, but we didn’t come up with this format or what we do to be huge. It’s fun going through 20 new songs, writing how I feel about it, and then just like talking to somebody else about it. That’s the freeing part. I don’t feel like I have strict obligations to it. Like it’s something we do, and we keep that like that routine, but there’s been times that there’s been technical issues and we couldn’t record where I couldn’t get something up on Sunday and it’s just like, “OK, whatever, it’ll get up when it gets up.” It’s just kind of a fun thing to have.

Second Society Report: What do you hope listener’s take away from listening to Hagpop?

Mandie: It’s OK to be a bitter old bitch (laughs).

Gabby: Generally there’s this weird thing where people hate anything that a majority of teenage girls love, but also there’s the idea that  you don’t get to like that thing once you’re not a teenager anymore.

Mandie: There is also a thing in Korea where you don’t see a lot of older people- like people over a certain age- listening to K-pop. Some people do, but it’s just a thing. And you don’t lose your hobbies or your interests once you become an adult and it’s OK. You can be over 25 and still like this sort of stuff. Just because it’s pop music and just because you’re 28 years old doesn’t mean you have to stop listening to it.

Second Society Report: Now I want to navigate into asking you both about K-pop in general. K-Pop is easily one of the biggest genres in music and is consistently growing year by year. Everyone who uses social media knows about “K-pop stans,” and has heard of artists such as BTS or BLACKPINK- yet they continue to be brushed off as a “fad.” Why do you think this is?

Gabby: There are a couple different reasons why.

Mandie: Racism is one. The second one would also be, as we said, it’s a teenage girl thing. 

Gabby: I think another thing is that it is put in the genre of pop, which in general is kind of- you say pop music and you’re like, “oh.”

Mandie: I don’t think there’s anything wrong with pop music, and I think this is kind of where my opinions on BTS and BLACKPINK come from. Korea has been trying to do a major art export for years and years. The Hallyu wave, which is what they call K-pop and K-dramas hitting the international markets, has been a thing since 2011. And that’s when we started seeing things like the Wonder Girls going on tour with the Jonas Brothers. And “Gangnam Style,” which came out in 2012 was people’s first exposure to K-pop. But you also had the Internet. People could watch Asian dramas, and could find these things online. I started seeing the rise of BTS on Tumblr when One Direction started to fall apart and there was a rise in 5 Seconds of Summer, and then when people started getting away from 5SOS, they found specifically BTS. I remember seeing a lot of 5SOS fans transition to ARMYs. 

Gabby: I think part of that was because of YouTubers React, too, because “Dope” by BTS was on there.

Mandie: BTS is very much a group that is an easy to swallow K-pop group for Western listeners. And that’s not a bad thing. It’s just why BTS and BLACKPINK have such big international fandoms, because those two have very good commercial sounds for what we like as western music. But I don’t think this is going to be a fad. 

Gabby: It’s been around long enough in pop culture, if you’re speaking specifically in America since 2012, at least. And that’s when we saw Psy in the VMAs.

Mandie: You have these young, pretty boys- when BTS really first started to take off it was like, “oh, they’re a group of pretty boys,” – it’s a very much the same thing as One Direction, but they’re Korean, they don’t speak English as a first language, they’re not doing English music. Actually, if you want another pop group who has an album in English, Monsta X came out and they actually are just as established.

Gabby: They were on Cartoon Network, in We Bare Bears.

Mandie: Right. So K-pop has been around for a while in the States. I don’t think it’s going away any time soon. They’re just growing.

Second Society Report: What about with award show snubs?

Mandie: When we talk about being snubbed at major award shows, if we’re talking about BTS at the Grammys- BTS was never going to win that Grammy. And that sounds mean, but it’s true. I know the people who are in the Recording Academy who vote for these things and BTS was never going to win.

Gabby: A lot of people are also basing a lot of that on sales, which is dumb. They shouldn’t have even if they wanted to with “Dynamite.” 

Mandie: “Dynamite” is a whole thing, and we talked about it in one of our episodes. Just like One Direction was never going to win a Grammy, BTS never going to win the Grammy. And part of it might be because they’re Korean, but that doesn’t just because they’re Korean doesn’t stop them from what we’re winning like a best group or duo thing. That song in and of itself is not something the recording academy would ever go for. 

Gabby: I think that them being snubbed comes down to a couple of different things. The genre of music, the fact that people like to think that you have to write your own music, which is a weird concept in its own right. And the fact that America likes to whitewash things a lot and it’s this idea that you have to be popular in America to be popular at all, which is a problem.

Mandie: People have been trying to break out into the west for years, but western recognition does not mean Korean accomplishments. BTS has had amazing Koreen accomplishments but it gets forgotten because they’re the first Korean group to do X, Y, Z in America. One, no. And two, it’s timing. BTS got lucky. That’s mean to say, maybe, but it’s the truth.

Gabby: I think that also highlights the fact that they were nominated for things more for the Academy to look good and be like “see we acknowledge this thing.” 

Mandie: Maybe one day we’ll see a K-pop group win a Grammy for best pop group. I’m not counting it out.

Gabby: I wouldn’t doubt that they would just make a whole new category for them specifically before that ever happens. And I think that comes down to the Academy being an issue and not so much K-pop being a fad.

Second Society Report: Beyond being primarily in another language- what do you think separates K-Pop from other genres? 

Mandie: It’s the showmanship. People literally train for this for years. 

Second Society Report: One of the main things I have always loved about watching K-Pop performances versus general pop artists is that the artists are truly performers. They are engaging with the audience, choreographed beyond comparison and always look SO cool while still singing and not missing a note. Why do you think there is such a difference between genres when it comes to this showmanship or performance value?

Gabby: So K-pop idols are put together with this idea that you’re not just going to sing and dance. You’re also going to get into advertising, you’re going to get into acting. You are going to get into everything. But that’s also what boy bands were always dealing with- and it’s all modeled off of Motown. The idea of taking these people, making them be a certain thing and then packaging it, which sounds shitty. 

Mandie: There’s a lot of there’s a lot of problems with the K pop industry but it’s getting better. Once upon a time, idol trainees used to not have dorms and they would eat and sleep in their practice rooms and practice 20 hours a day or more. These groups who debuted 10 plus years ago, that’s what they were facing. And now it’s kind of cool to be an idol. But you don’t just show up, learn a song, learn to dance and clock out. 

Gabby: And it’s part of it is the polish that goes along with that, too, and the discipline to be a very good performer. And I think it’s also partially because there is so much competition that they are looking for the new sound so I think that’s why a lot of K-pop might sound progressive.

Mandie: They also all care about each other. And that’s what makes performances different because there’s a camaraderie. They all went through this training together. They went through these hardships together. You don’t let one person fall behind.

Mandie: There’s a video of NCT 127 practicing “Simon Says” where they stopped their dance practices and brought out a protractor to get the correct angles for moves. So it’s precision, like groups who can dance in complete synchronization or close to complete synchronization- that’s something people look for and what groups spend hours working on in the studio alone. Some people train for five or six years before they even get the chance to debut. And that is five, six or seven years of voice lessons, dance lessons, Korean practice. And that’s just what you do. And then you have to pay back when you debut.

Second Society Report: How would you say a live K-pop show varies from say a regular pop concert?

Mandie: K-pop concerts are a very interesting thing. As someone who did see the Backstreet Boys when they were 7 (laughs) and One Direction, K-pop is a very different sort of pop concert. And it’s not just the artists who act a certain way, it’s also the fans. 

There’s these things called fan chants, you don’t sing along to the songs, you have certain parts that you either repeat back or like yell at the artist and you have light sticks that you’re supposed to move around at the same time. The visuals are a big part of it. 

Second Society Report: One of the main criticisms or excuses I hear for not giving K or J-pop a chance is that people “can’t understand the lyrics.” How would you respond to this idea? 

Gabby: I think that’s dumb. Especially because there are songs like “Despacito,” which was super popular and in Spanish. And sure, more people speak Spanish but not everyone who likes that song does.

Mandie: Language doesn’t matter. I’m under the assumption that if you hand me a song and it’s a banger, I don’t care what genre it is, I don’t care what language it’s in, I will listen to it if it’s a banger. 

Gabby: People like Rammstein, which is German and that “numa numa” song which was a meme, but people still liked it. 

Mandie: That’s also like a huge racist thing to do is to be like, “oh, I don’t want to listen to this because it’s an insert language here,” especially if we’re talking about Asian languages. Especially when you’re looking at like white people talking about music in countries that are of other races. 

Gabby: What’s the answer to everything? Racism. 

Mandie: It’s mostly a white people problem. 

Second Society Report: What do you wish more people understood about being a K-pop fan or the genre in general?

Mandie: It’s not that serious. That’s how I feel about music in general. K-pop helped me learn that music is not that serious. I saw so much and I learned so much about the music industry in college and I knew it was corrupt. And then when I got into K-pop I found something fun again. And I still listen to it because it’s fun and also there’s a new album coming out every week. 

Gabby: Honestly, it’s not that big a deal. Enjoy what you want to. The goofy songs are fine, 

Mandie: The goofy songs are fun. Not everything is about sales or metrics. When you start using album sales as a metric of whether a group is good or not. Then you’re taking it too seriously. Just because someone sells a million copies of an album, that doesn’t discredit other groups.

Gabby: I play music while I tattoo, and it’s a lot of K-pop and almost overwhelmingly I’ve always had people be like, “I really like what you’re playing,” because I think they expect to come into a tattoo shop and have, like, metal screamed at them. But I have just fun music that’s like grooving and they like that. It makes things easier. It’s not that big of a deal. It’s music. 

Mandie: I think people expect all of K-pop to sound like BTS and it doesn’t.

Gabby: It’s a giant industry that’s constantly moving. 

Second Society Report: Can you give us a few recommendations for K-Pop artists our readers should check out?

Mandie: Before I am human, I am an EXO-L l so EXO.

Gabby: My favorite is SHINee.**

Mandie: If you like noise music, NCT 127  and Stray Kids. If you like girl groups with heavy guitars and anime music, Dreamcatcher. 

Gabby: Red Velvet is also a very good girl group. Ateez very much is one of those general crowd pleasers. 

Mandie: I really like ONEUS, ONEUS is very good, if you like K-bands, their sibling group ONEWE is also good. Day6, Lucy- they have a violin, it’s supercool.  I like Golden Child if you like vocals. 

Both: Then there are EXID, Rocket Punch, Weeekly, Weki Meki, ONF, Monsta X, ITZY, WEi, OnlyOneOf, Astro, TVXQ, 2PM, BoA.

Mandie: BoA and TVXQ are how K-pop really took off in Japan. BoA is carrying K-pop on her back. She is 34 years old and she has been in the game for 20 years.

Gabby: If you don’t like BoA…

Mandie: If you don’t know your history you are doomed to embarrass yourself.

Second Society Report: Is there anything I haven’t asked that you’d like to share with our readers?

Mandie: It’s very hard to be a casual K-pop listener because when there’s so much stuff that happens and a lot of it is on TV shows or on apps that aren’t Instagram or Twitter.

You also need to know your history. If you ever get into K-pop to a point where you’re talking to other people about K-pop and you kind of don’t know your history it’s hard. And it’s a cultural thing. If a group is your senior, you kind of worship the ground as they walk on. And to discredit older groups or to not know of them is kind of…bad. 

Mainly- if you’re ever going to get into K-pop, just just know who BoA is. She’s the queen for a reason. 

You can stream the latest episode of Hagpop! out now, and be sure to tune in every other Sunday for new episodes and updates on all things K-Pop.

And to get your fix in the meantime, you can follow Hagpop! on social media via the links below and check out our full K-Pop playlist, inspired by Hagpop! also linked below.

(**Editor’s Note: Fans should be advised for potential triggering content when diving into the history of SHINee. Trigger warnings include suicide, as well as circulating video of a member’s funeral.) 

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